Tuesday, February 8, 2011

Argument from No Body as presented by David Velasquez

So the other day I was having a conversation with this guy David Velasquez on facebook about the resurrection of Jesus and his comments went something like this. I have heard all the alternate theories and they are ridiculous, until someone comes up with the body Jesus was resurrected. That was his proof for the resurrection. We are going to be very liberal with this, as a matter of fact we are going to pretend for a moment or 2 as David does that he has a personal relationship with a zombie savior. We are going to pretend that his argument doesn't completely shift the burden of proof, we are also going to the land of make believe and going to assume that this David guy, who claims to be going for a masters in college, has the ability to comprehend what a syllogism is and actually put one together. Yes I know atheist brethren this is a huge leap to a conclusion, but please just play along. I present to you the syllogism for his argument.

Premise 1: we have not found Jesus' body.
Premise 2: A resurrection is the most probable explanation
Conclusion: The belief in the resurrection is justified.

Premise 1 is true, I grant that, so far so good. One of the most successful theist arguments ever, first premise is sound. So we get to the second premise.

This is where David runs into huge issues. We have a huge data set on resurrection possibilities. We have millions of cases and not a single resurrection out of the last how ever million cases. Our data set is so large that the margin of error is near zero. The percentages are very low that Jesus resurrected. So we can say we are close to a zero percent chance that a body resurrects after 3 days. So these other possibilities must be pretty bad and impossible right. Well, we could probably stop this ridiculousness at the body was stolen, but that would be to easy. As grave robbery happens far more frequently then bodily resurrections. So that is more likely. Premise 2 is sounding very poor, but I contend that we can do better then this. I contend that there should be no expectation at all that Premise 1 should come as any shock.

Lets go back to this now. I contend that if Jesus was a real person, and this is a huge concession to make, that the historical Jesus is so far from the Jesus of Christianity that we should not expect to find a body. My contention is that if you had only seen the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre, you would not expect the person to find Ed Gein, in case you are not familiar he is the real life serial killer that inspired the character. ( You would not expect to find st Nicholas by only knowing the story of Santa Claus. The latter may actually be a better example, by the fact that we got there from a constant expansion of myth about the man, where as Ed Gein turned to Leatherface in a more intentional way, as the writer of the movie took many liberties. But that is neither here nor there as the end result is the mythical character makes it hard to find the real person if that is all you have.

Im going for my masters, David, seems to miss the concept that historians only give credit to a historical Jesus as being a apocalyptic preacher. That is far from the actual character that we are searching for. The story of Jesus was not written down until at least 30-40 years after his supposed death. It had long been mixed with Mythology and authors making changes. The changes could be mere mistakes, or intentional to cover up opposing views of Christianity. Early christians had many different alien views of Jesus then modern christians. There are many examples of these causing authors to change the story. He also ignore the whole theory that the resurrection is myth that follows the tradition of many previous gods being raised from the dead. So we have some huge problems with his assumption. We are well aware that throughout history characters have far more often become more myth then reality. This happens in a far greater proportion then any 3 day resurrection story. Not only this but if Jesus was really crucified, he ignores another problem. Criminals executed like Jesus were commonly buried in mass graves, not given anything like a single tomb like the gospels portray. If he was crucified there is no reason to believe that he would be treated any different. How would we even know his bones if we found them.

Another possibility is hoax. This means it was mad e up a people bought into it being real. Many modern examples of this exist today,many people bout the Blair with project as real, ditto for Paranormal actiivity and Texas Chainsaw Massacre. People buy into the lochness monster and in almost every state there is a ghost story about the prom girl walking the road or the hooker man walking the railroad tracks as ghost stories. Wow that is far more modern day examples of fake events being bought into as being real,then any 3 day resurrection stories.

There is zero reason to believe that we should have found Jesus's body. So it turns out our good boy David is just accepting a story without even giving it the basic thought process it deserves. Sorry David your argument fails. Then again I would hope that David would have been honest enough with himself not to have bought into 4 unknown authors claiming a resurrection, when he wouldn't buy into 4 of his own friends telling him someone who died 3 days ago was outside playing basketball. This has to be one of the most blatant displays of intellectual dishonesty in a long time and for a guy who claims to have studied theology this argument gives it an even worse black eye then it already has. That's quite a feat for a field that includes clowns like William Lane Craig and Lee Stobel, but alas thats probably where David adapted this from. Those 2 buffoons empty tomb arguments.


  1. You should not lie about this supposed conversation between me and you. We didn't discuss anything Erik. Are you that much in need of attention or are you that lonely that you need to make stuff up? I pity you and your need to find worth through defaming, slandering or a suppose intellectuality you want to portray. You Need a life, a girlfriend, a pet – dude something. Get a life dude, grow up, do something man. Step away from the computer man - Seriously get a life.

  2. I wish I was making this conversation up David, but no it happened right after you asked permission to use my may 21 rapture contract. This happened on facebooks chat feature. Jesus doesn't like liars.

  3. All I can say to you Erik is that though you think yourself wise - you have shown the world what a fool you are. I pity you, the one you kick against laughs at you foolishness. One day you will bend your knees before Him and you will confess him Lord, for the whole world will, but on that day you will be cast into eternal hell. For you are the worst kind of fool, the kind that thinks himself wise. I really want nothing to do with you from here on, you insult my God and mock the truth and what is worst you do not have a teachable spirit. All you want is to show your stupidity and you think there is a great cloud of people out there in cyber land that must be saying "that a boy Erik. You show them Christians" hahaha hahahaha You are nothing but a fool who needs to repent and believe in Christ. You will never be at peace, you will not find contentment on anything you do, because you are unsuccessfully fighting against the truth, how lost and blind are you? Well - you are dead in your trespasses and sins. Drink and eat Erik because this life is all you get. Insult and have your beer for this is all the temporary pleasures you will get. You are a bitter man in need of God, but you fight the only one that can give you rest. Very well then fool, continue in your foolishness. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. May my Lord have mercy on you. I will pray for you for you need it. Oh and i am not a bit mad at you or angry - My Lord continues to be Lord and you have done nothing to hurt his work, much less him, who can think it and you are gone. Step away from the computer and get some real interaction with people, FB has become your life, what a pity. Good bye Erik. David Velasquez

  4. Scripture presents conclusive evidence that Jesus Christ was in fact resurrected from the dead. Christ’s resurrection is recorded in Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53; and John 20:1–21:25. The resurrected Christ also appeared in the Book of Acts (Acts 1:1-11). From these passages you can gain several “proofs” of Christ’s resurrection. First is the dramatic change in the disciples. They went from a group of men frightened and in hiding to strong, courageous witnesses sharing the gospel throughout the world. What else could explain this dramatic change other than the risen Christ appearing to them?

    Second is the life of the apostle Paul. What changed him from being a persecutor of the church into an apostle for the church? It was when the risen Christ appeared to him on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-6). A third convincing proof is the empty tomb. If Christ were not raised, then where is His body? The disciples and others saw the tomb where He was buried. When they returned, His body was not there. Angels declared that He had been raised from the dead as He had promised (Matthew 28:5-7). Fourth, additional evidence of His resurrection is the many people He appeared to (Matthew 28:5, 9, 16-17; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:13-35; John 20:19, 24, 26-29, 21:1-14; Acts 1:6-8; 1 Corinthians 15:5-7).

    Another proof of the resurrection of Jesus is the great amount of weight the apostles gave to Jesus' resurrection. A key passage on Christ’s resurrection is 1 Corinthians 15. In this chapter, the apostle Paul explains why it is crucial to understand and believe in Christ’s resurrection. The resurrection is important for the following reasons: 1) If Christ was not raised from the dead, believers will not be either (1 Corinthians 15:12-15). 2) If Christ was not raised from the dead, His sacrifice for sin was not sufficient (1 Corinthians 15:16-19). Jesus’ resurrection proved that His death was accepted by God as the atonement for our sins. If He had simply died and stayed dead, that would indicate His sacrifice was not sufficient. As a result, believers would not be forgiven for their sins, and they would remain dead after they die (1 Corinthians 15:16-19). There would be no such thing as eternal life (John 3:16). “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep” (1 Corinthians 15:20 NAS).

    Finally, Scripture is clear that all those who believe in Jesus Christ will be raised to eternal life just as He was (1 Corinthians 15:20-23). First Corinthians 15 goes on to describe how Christ’s resurrection proves His victory over sin and provides us the power to live victoriously over sin (1 Corinthians 15:24-34). It describes the glorious nature of the resurrection body we will receive (1 Corinthians 15:35-49). It proclaims that, as a result of Christ’s resurrection, all who believe in Him have ultimate victory over death (1 Corinthians 15:50-58).

    What a glorious truth the resurrection of Christ is! “Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:58). According to the Bible, the resurrection of Jesus Christ is most definitely true. The Bible records Christ's resurrection, records that it was witnessed by over 400 people, and proceeds to build crucial Christian doctrine on the historical fact of Jesus' resurrection.

  5. a non existent non defend-able being has become your life and you pity me. I do have a life outside of facebook and just because you can't defend your position you run. I do mock your god, prove there is no reason not to mock your god. The way to do that is prove your god exists.

    By the way your argument is merely begging the question at the end. You claim you story is true because the story is written in the bible the origin of your story. That says but 2 things about its truth value, jack and shit, and jack left town a long time ago.

  6. You are aware the road to Damascus experience matches very well with symptoms of a epileptic seizure. And the strong myth theory is much more rational then zombie rose from the dead.

  7. You quote the bible like I am suppose to believe that without questions. See that the problem you presuppose the bible true and their is no reason whatsoever to do that. The authors are largely unknown, and if a group of people came up to me that I knew and said Bob is up walking from the dead I would not believe them. Let alone a book written 2000 years ago that also includes virgin births. This is crazy you would never believe your friends if they told you bob was born of a virgin and was resurrected, so why grant it to unknown authors from 2000 years ago. Special pleading much!!!!!!!!!!